-100

Update April 10th, 2025

This feature has been graduated. Voting increased with both lower-rep users and high-rep users.

Update January 16th, 2025

This morning, we expanded the vote prompt and popover to all users. Our test group showed a 3.8% increase in new monthly voters. We will continue to monitor the voting trends and will provide further information on how its doing in the future.


Moderator Note: This is currently in A/B Testing and may be visible to some users now

We are rolling out two small voting experiments that will likely start sometime in January on Stack Overflow that we hope will increase voting engagement.

Why we are doing this

We don’t see many users who hold voting privileges participating in voting. This breaks down as follows, on a monthly average:

  • Only 20% of registered users who have the upvote privilege are using it.
  • Only 6% of registered users who have the downvoting privilege are using it.

Voting is one of the most significant actions users can take to signal quality on the network. We would like to see what minor actions we can take to encourage users to vote more frequently on content they visit. These experiments will only be visible to those with voting privileges.

New upvoting popover

We plan to prompt users who have voting privileges but have not engaged with the feature much (e.g., once every three months, never voted before, etc.). Users that fall into that group would see the prompt below. If the popover is dismissed, the user won’t see the prompt for a period of time.

enter image description here

Vote prompt

For Q&A that has no score or answers that have equal up and down votes the zero will be replaced with the word “vote”.

enter image description here

If you have any questions or feedback, please let us know. We will be monitoring feedback on this post till December 23rd, 2024.

121
  • 31
    "For Q&A that has no score or answers that have equal up and down votes the zero will be replaced with the word “vote”." Will clicking on "Vote" still display the number of up and down votes on said post?
    – Thom A
    Commented Dec 16, 2024 at 9:50
  • 24
    Yes, @ThomA, users who have the privilege to will still be able to see the score breakdown.
    – JNat StaffMod
    Commented Dec 16, 2024 at 15:01
  • 75
    But you haven't actually fixed the problem that is the reason why I haven't touched the upvote button since Oct 2021. The problem is that the vast majority of new questions are garbage. Fix that first.
    – JK.
    Commented Dec 17, 2024 at 3:40
  • 54
    Finally. SO tell me to go and downvote. After all that years of "be nice" campaigns.
    – talex
    Commented Dec 18, 2024 at 13:27
  • 30
    "Only 6% of registered users who have the downvoting privilege are using it." Some of those users actively don't downvote. There are many (inc very high rep) users who despite having made 10's of thousands of votes, their number of downvotes are in the 10's or 100's. This isn't because they don't know about the feature, they actively don't use it. Of course, there are users who have (many) more downvotes than upvotes (myself included), but downvotes have a "reputation" of intentionally not being used and, in my opinion, the education on them needs to me more than a reminder they exist.
    – Thom A
    Commented Dec 18, 2024 at 14:46
  • 94
    Just to be clear, we actively dis-incentivize downvoting and are confused as to why people don't do it as much? I know that some feel the penalty should be increased Increase the downvote penalty for downvotee on answers from 2 to 4 but if you want to incentivize voting, perhaps curators should be rewarded for curation of content not punished.
    – JonSG
    Commented Dec 18, 2024 at 15:04
  • 27
    Given that the JNat commented that this experiment will only focus on upvotes this post feels dishonest (which might not have been the intention, but is the result). The text is written in a neutral way which implies the experiment is about up- and downvotes, but in practice downvotes are ignored yet again. I guess in theory one could divine that from the fact that the screenshot only shows an "upvote this" prompt but yeah, a more honest way to communicate this would put that information front and center.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Dec 18, 2024 at 15:25
  • 112
    I'll tell you why people don't downvote: (1) it costs them something, which sensibly discourages downvoting (2) the quality signal is soon "compensated" by someone who upvotes out of "let's not be mean". Commented Dec 18, 2024 at 20:58
  • 45
    Ugh, I hate this. With 69K+ votes cast on SO, I should not need prompting to vote.
    – jmoerdyk
    Commented Jan 7 at 22:11
  • 21
    It is a valid reason to try and see if this encourages voting. That said, it looks horribly awkward mixing "text" and "numbers" in a "numbers" counter widget. If it gets the desired result, keep it, but if the results are mixed, I much prefer seeing 0 instead of Vote - just seems more natural. With Vote it is more like a peanut-butter and barbecue sauce sandwich... Also "For Q&A that has no score or answers that have equal up and down votes the zero will be replaced with the word “vote” is confusing as hell - how do you know if Vote is zero or not? Should only be when count is 0. Commented Jan 8 at 5:46
  • 47
    I find the Vote prompt ugly and confusing.
    – Joooeey
    Commented Jan 8 at 12:16
  • 73
    The Vote in place of 0 is rather annoying and not needed. I prefer 0. Besides, even my cat could figure out what the up and down arrows mean without being told.
    – WJS
    Commented Jan 8 at 21:21
  • 13
    @JNat I hope you're monitoring the voting pattern on this post since going live with the experiment. TL;DR it's not well received
    – Phil
    Commented Jan 9 at 0:18
  • 13
    If this sentence is true: "If you have any questions or feedback, please let us know. We will be monitoring feedback on this post till December 23rd, 2024." and you don't monitor feedback anymore then this post shouldn't be the currently "Featured" meta post anymore. Commented Jan 9 at 13:09
  • 45
    I'm annoyed by the Vote that's replaced the 0. I don't understand how this is meant to encourage people to upvote when it does nothing to address crap quality questions. If I read a question that deserves an upvote (which is rare), I give an upvote. However, I tend to reserve my downvote casting for particularly bad questions...until now. Want me to Vote? Ok.... Commented Jan 9 at 19:13

32 Answers 32

129

In case this is not already planned, the second change about replacing 0 with Vote should not apply to posts you own or are otherwise ineligible to vote on. Them being zero score should still be made clear to the post author.

6
  • 42
    Or any other post you can't vote on (ex. you already voted, its locked, etc.)
    – Starship
    Commented Dec 16, 2024 at 17:49
  • 4
    @Starship-OnDiscussionsStrike Agreed.
    – CPlus
    Commented Dec 16, 2024 at 17:59
  • 15
    Honestly, there is no reason to have vote buttons at all on your own posts, or at least they should be greyed out and inactive. Commented Dec 19, 2024 at 7:08
  • 4
    @PiotrSiupa Remove vote UI elements beside own question and answer posts
    – starball Mod
    Commented Dec 19, 2024 at 9:20
  • 13
    This experiment does take into consideration whether or not the user can vote on the posts.
    – JNat StaffMod
    Commented Dec 23, 2024 at 9:27
  • Here is a screenshot that shows that this is already the case: i.sstatic.net/Ol92kF91.png Commented Jan 10 at 15:01
117

For Q&A that has no score or answers that have equal up and down votes the zero will be replaced with the word “vote”.

This seems unnecessarily confusing. I imagine a fair few users would assume the vote count is locked, or hidden, or requires something extra (privilege, payment), or something.

Keeping the zero but having some extra notice around it to incentivise voting would probably have been clearer.

Another alternative I have seen on GOG.com is that when there are no user submitted scores for an item yet, the aggregate rating shows up as "Be first to rate":

GOG.com showing "Be first to rate"

GOG.com showing an aggregate rating of "3.4/5"

4
  • 4
    Note that this still occurs (example) when a post is at +1/-1, so "Be the first to rate" would be inaccurate in that case.
    – cocomac
    Commented Jan 7 at 22:07
  • 12
    @cocomac my intention was to give an example and let SE work out how to incorporate it. Not to dictate the precise implementation.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jan 8 at 7:13
  • 5
    @cocomac We could have a "Break the tie" when it's at +1/-1 (etc) :D
    – anonWrkrB
    Commented Jan 9 at 16:54
  • 2
    I like the GOG suggestion, but alas "Be first to rate" is never going to fit in that narrow slot on the side even with the biggest sledgehammer.
    – Gimby
    Commented Jan 16 at 16:34
108

enter image description here

No. No. Please oh please, no. No.

No.

I had no idea about this until it happened to me today and I had to use Google to find this meta post.

I've been a member here for 10+ years and vote all the time. I just counted 29 times in the since the beginning of Dec with approx 60% downvotes. I don't understand why I am being targeted in this experiment but I hate it.

The word "vote" feels like a command - which in the context of what the OP has described it basically is - and it reminds me of those signs in the movie They Live that say "Obey" everywhere.

Please, for the love of all things, stop this madness. Or at the very least give me an option of permanently opting out.

I don't like resorting to this but using stylus I reverted the madness like this:

div.js-vote-count[data-value="0"] > span {
    visibility: hidden;
    font-size: 0!important;
}
div.js-vote-count[data-value="0"] > span::before {
    visibility: visible;
    content: '0';
    display: inline-block;
    font-size: var(--fs-body3);
}

(Selectors updated 2025-08-07)

19
  • 1
    At least for this one, it's currently featured, so it's visible from the community bulletin on the main site.
    – starball Mod
    Commented Jan 8 at 21:26
  • 1
    Well, yes, of course. Because the company sees their test feature from the perspective of what it's trying to accomplish, not from the perspective of someone who doesn't understand it. Commented Jan 8 at 23:23
  • 12
    I find it comical that iteration after iteration of the right bulletin/featured posts section results in the same lack of awareness of it's existence. Almost as if it's not the design that is the issue, but... something else.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jan 9 at 3:21
  • 2
    Wait, they're wilfully hiding the current score if you haven't voted? That's awful. Commented Jan 15 at 0:49
  • 2
    I have a score of over 15,000 on StackOverflow and I just saw this in action. Thanks for saving me the hassle of writing my own userstyle.
    – ssokolow
    Commented Jan 16 at 15:43
  • No no no, it's subliminal messaging. "Smoke".
    – Gimby
    Commented Jan 16 at 16:35
  • The current implementation is terrible, when refreshing page I can see 0 for a short time before stupid text "Vote" appears.
    – Sinatr
    Commented Jan 20 at 17:27
  • @SteveBennett What do you mean with "hiding", and how is that awful?
    – no comment
    Commented Jan 20 at 18:49
  • 2
    The word "Vote" appears instead of the numeric value, hiding it. Commented Jan 21 at 2:45
  • @SteveBennett But only if the numeric value is 0. I think you're exaggerating, acting as if it hid non-zero values as well. If that were the case, I'd agree with you. But since I don't lose any information by the "hiding" of the 0, I don't think that's an issue and calling it "hiding" is inappropriate.
    – no comment
    Commented Jan 21 at 11:07
  • Just out of curiosity, why something like this doesn't work: .js-exp-vote-zero {content: "0" !important;}? I asked about it here chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/57859234 too
    – M--
    Commented Jan 21 at 16:36
  • 4
    This reminds me how nice the UI was a few years ago. I was a very active user. The last changes simply destroyed my willingness to use SO for anything else than getting help on a specific topic. Not to help others anymore, and that's purely because of the UI changes. Good job and good bye. You guys just ruined a perfect product.
    – MrUpsidown
    Commented Jan 22 at 15:24
  • 2
    @MrUpsidown It only gets worse. It never gets better. I don't see why they keep futzing with it.
    – Brad
    Commented Jan 23 at 5:34
  • 5
    @Mentalist You got the direction wrong. Here with "Vote", we are being commanded, while with those "Open" etc, we're commanding.
    – no comment
    Commented Jan 23 at 12:35
  • 4
    @Mentalist "the action that will be carried out when the text is clicked" - Is that what happens for you? Clicking the word votes? How does it know whether to upvote or downvote?
    – no comment
    Commented Jan 24 at 8:40
86

I want to address a point that JNat made in a comment:

The experiment will focus on upvoting only; answers only; on the top answer only, if there are multiple. The pop-over will not show concurrently to the currently existing banners. We will see what we learn, and go from there.

This feels like a terrible idea to me. Upvotes and downvotes are really important, and the Question here makes it very apparent that downvotes aren't in use any where near as much as upvotes, with only 6% and 20% using their votes respectively. Downvotes are the clear loser in that scenario. This is evidenced in the site analytics as well:
Graph showing downvote volume significantly lower

Only putting this on the "Top answer" feels even worse to me, it feels like you are promoting that specific answer; the top upvoted answer is NOT always the best answer. Pile on votes for old, bad answers, are a problem enough, and a lack of downvotes on those answers is a problem as well; don't make the problem worse by suggesting people add more pile on upvotes to the "top" answer when it could be far from the best. The pop-up should be post agnostic, and vote type agnostic as well, in my opinion.

If you won't implement this, will you be able to determine after the prompt how many people voted on an answer different to the one they were prompted to, and/or if they downvoted (on the answer you suggested to upvote)?


Further in regards to Downvotes, and the lack of them, I wrote a "quick" SEDE to see the weight of use of downvotes to upvotes. I included only uses that are (currently) about to cast both up and down votes, and have voted at least 100 times. I was not expecting the sheer volume of people that have never cast a downvote but cast 100 upvotes; 39432 users (averaging over 300 votes each). There are more users that have used 100% of their votes for upvotes that users who have less <90% of their votes for upvotes.

These users could be making a lot of upvotes, however, rarely (never) downvote, and this is really important. I therefore really suggest that Stack Overflow reconsider weighing on Upvotes alone; ask people to vote that's all you need to do. How they vote, up or down, is less important; we need people to be using their votes correctly, and just upvoting doesn't do that.

Result of the SEDE:

PercUpvotes Upvotes Downvotes Users
0-5% 61781 2673803 192
5-10% 155354 1920975 236
10-15% 220985 1561099 329
15-20% 276311 1330406 345
20-25% 357896 1234255 389
25-30% 264448 697489 469
30-35% 391906 809915 568
35-40% 435051 721954 739
40-45% 533700 725159 864
45-50% 656790 726249 956
50-55% 707456 638538 1201
55-60% 965810 718012 1596
60-65% 1212631 725597 2021
65-70% 1404695 671552 2487
70-75% 2142606 808445 3655
75-80% 2753700 795992 5130
80-85% 4070497 855411 8326
85-90% 7137658 997852 15067
90-95% 15720447 1210095 33970
95-100% 98634067 1393352 155078
100% 12783331 0 39432

And visually if you are so inclined

enter image description here

19
  • 6
    Not to discount any of your points, but one logical reason to put it on the top answer is that's the first one a user will see when scrolling, so it's more likely that a user will see it. Though if it makes voting patterns worse in the way you fear, it may still be worse to put it there, even so.
    – M. Justin
    Commented Dec 18, 2024 at 23:48
  • 2
    I'd rather it just be detached from posts entirely, @M.Justin . He could be a banner, or a "floating" bubble. It shouldn't be attached to the first answer.
    – Thom A
    Commented Dec 19, 2024 at 9:20
  • 29
    I just want to highlight here that we penalize people for downvoting. I'm not arguing that this is an important part of curation, but we do penalize people for this curation. Collectively, if we feel that this is important, then we should incentivize this behavior or at the very least, not penalize it. Perhaps if an item is downvoted by a gold tag or two silver tags or closed then points could be refunded for all curators (or some such thing)
    – JonSG
    Commented Dec 19, 2024 at 15:56
  • 59
    Yeah, I really dislike that downvoting answers "costs" reputation, @JonSG . There's a question where I think I have about downvoted 9 or more answers, because they are all open to SQL injection attacks. It, however, costs me reputation to tell others than the solution is not only not good, but bad because it's has a massive security vulnerability. Don't get me wrong, i'd do it again, but it's silly that experience users have to "pay" to tell others that answers are bad.
    – Thom A
    Commented Dec 19, 2024 at 16:02
  • 10
    "Only putting this on the "Top answer" feels even worse to me, it feels like you are promoting that specific answer; the top upvoted answer is NOT always the best answer." I fully agree. Moreover, this feeds into the widely spread misconception that many users attest to - that only the top answer matters. Many times I've pointed users to a duplicate with 10+ answers knowing fully well one of them works. However, they've come back to me and claimed "it" doesn't work. "it" being the top-most answer. While answer #2 or #3 fully addressed their issue.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Dec 22, 2024 at 12:17
  • 5
    I think I would qualify as one who upvotes a lot but rarely downvotes. I don't have much reputation and the penalty for downvoting is therefore much more significant for me than the people with a "k" after their reputation score.
    – MT1
    Commented Dec 23, 2024 at 9:21
  • 4
    And that's part of the problem, @MT1 ; people don't vote on answers because they they value internet points. Question downvotes don't "cost" anything though.
    – Thom A
    Commented Dec 23, 2024 at 9:26
  • 2
    @MT1 Only about 13% of my votes are upvotes and I have way less rep than you
    – Starship
    Commented Dec 23, 2024 at 20:25
  • 3
    The downvotes have a stigma attached to them in my book given the problems SO had with roving bands of downvote-weenies and sock-puppets in the 2014-2017 time frame. From that grew a better solution of "comment and give opportunity to cure" before downvoting. There is no such stigma on upvotes which I see as explaining the disparity. Commented Jan 8 at 5:54
  • 2
    @DavidC.Rankin, ...huh; I was around for that timeframe, and never reached that takeaway. (Comment, yes, so someone knows why they got your downvote and can notify you if they cure the issue to allow that downvote to be reversed; but why wait to apply it?) Commented Jan 8 at 15:58
  • 1
    @ThomA people don't vote on answers because they they value internet points of course I do, with no points I can't do anything ...
    – MT1
    Commented Jan 9 at 2:50
  • 1
    @MT1 what do you mean you can't do anything? You can still suggest edits, you can still upvote, you can answer and ask questions. What would you not be able to do other than downvoting by downvoting?
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 9 at 3:43
  • 2
    I 100% agree. SO has a winner-take-all problem with early answers. This happens all the time on SO and on Reddit too. Example: my answer is better but it is unlikely to ever reach the top stackoverflow.com/questions/15726535/…
    – ChatGPT
    Commented Jan 12 at 3:06
  • 2
    Regarding users voting differently than prompted, we are tracking voting on any answer on the post, so yes. Regardless of whether they vote up or down, we are keeping an eye on it.
    – Hoid StaffMod
    Commented Jan 14 at 16:22
  • 4
    The agnostic pop-up is a good idea, and it’s on our radar to consider for a permanent release. You also mention voting correctly, which is a bit of a sticky issue. We have voting defined in the help center, but many people deviate from that appropriately or otherwise. We do have a project currently under consideration to address some kind of just-in-time voting guidance when they attempt to do so and are new or don’t vote typically. There is not a promise that it will come, but it's definitely being weighed alongside the results of this experiment.
    – Hoid StaffMod
    Commented Jan 14 at 16:23
76

Change the text from "Did this work?" to "Is this useful?" in the new voting popover:

  • Not every answer is a matter of making something work. For example, understanding questions (as opposed to problem-solving questions). (Thanks to starball for pointing this out in comments.)
  • This is consistent with the current text on mouseover: "This answer is useful".
  • The question "Did this work?" suggests that the user should test the answer before voting.
    • Testing the answer is not necessary for the upvote. I often upvote answers from which I learn something potentially useful, without necessarily testing whether the answer actually works.
    • Saying "it is useful" instead of "it works" lowers the "psychological bar" to vote on an answer.
    • The converse is also true. For example, a duplicate answer (which is redundant, and contributes nothing new, given an already existing answer), may very well work, but it is not useful.
5
  • 6
    On the subject of "Did this work?", it would be great to do more experiments to encourage users to accept the answer that works best for them. There are so many answers for which the users said in comments that this answer solved their problem, but they did forgot (?) to accept this answer. Commented Dec 18, 2024 at 18:13
  • 6
    the rationale I'd give instead is that not every answer is a matter of making something work. Ex. understanding questions (as opposed to problem-solving questions).
    – starball Mod
    Commented Dec 18, 2024 at 18:20
  • 3
    This is my own personal voting philosophy, but one reason I don't always vote (or don't always vote right away) is that I don't want to upvote a good looking answer before making sure it actually works. This is especially true when there are multiple answers with different approaches. I feel the system is harmed more by bad upvotes than a reduced number of good upvotes.
    – M. Justin
    Commented Dec 18, 2024 at 23:50
  • 3
    This is good feedback, and should the experiment graduate, it will be considered for a permanent release.
    – Hoid StaffMod
    Commented Jan 14 at 15:58
  • 1
    Yes. Personally, if something is useful I tend to upvote. If it works, I'll consider adding a comment to that effect. Commented Jan 15 at 0:48
48

Having lived a day with this applying to my profile, I really don't like it. Maybe I'm in the minority (and I'm sure I'm not really the target audience, with how frequently I vote), but I really don't like having to think an extra step about what score a post is at when I view it. I spent the better part of my morning this morning writing a userscript to hide it, and it was frustratingly less successful than usual because of the duct tape method this test was implemented (it appears to be applied after the page is done painting, via JavaScript, rather than properly implemented via server side logic).

A much better method would be to show the score at 0 like normal and focus instead on just displaying the modal that encourages users to vote more prominently/frequently when they haven't voted in a while.

8
  • 5
    just because it's done client side doesn't mean it's "not proper". it sounds like you just want some ID/class/selector to be able to target it. that's not mutually exclusive at all from whether an element is created client-side via DOM, or written server-side, or anything else.
    – starball Mod
    Commented Jan 7 at 22:50
  • 10
    @starball For something like setting the display value of data you retrieve from a server side database, setting the display via post-DOM-ready JS scrip its definitely "not proper".
    – TylerH
    Commented Jan 7 at 23:05
  • 9
    I'll hold my hands up for the client-side implementation. It is applied at the same stage we apply the selected state for your existing votes, which ultimately avoids an extra DB query on page load, which I felt was worth the trade-off
    – Connell StaffMod
    Commented Jan 8 at 13:06
  • 1
    @TylerH The thing is, the display value likely isn't retrieved from a server side database. The "value" is, then the display value is calculated based on whether someone is in the experiment or not to be 0 or vote. Commented Jan 9 at 15:19
  • 2
    @Connell I can see the rationale for doing it client-side and perhaps it's the right decision but at least on my devices it flashes 0 for a microsecond before Vote appears and I find the movement a bit distracting when the page loads. Is there a way of still doing it client-side but slightly earlier, or hiding the element until the desired text is available so it doesn't quickly change?
    – SamR
    Commented Jan 18 at 18:26
  • 4
    Just a heads up - slight change in logic means we can switch to a server-side solution now, so no more flashes! That'll be live soon
    – Connell StaffMod
    Commented Apr 7 at 12:10
  • 1
    Thanks for the heads up, @Connell!
    – TylerH
    Commented Apr 7 at 13:57
  • @CorneliusRoemer Right, and you've highlighted the problem here. We already have the "value" from the server, so we can just display that immediately... and that was fine for the last 16 years :-). If we have to display a different value if it's 0, we can probably also change that on the server side via the stored procedure that is surely called whenever the value is requested, but even if we have to do that calculation via JS for some reason... it should be done before DOM ready, not after.
    – TylerH
    Commented Apr 7 at 14:00
35

If people feel strongly enough to have an opinion, they don't need to be reminded that voting exists; It's right there at the top of every post in the most prominent location on the page. We should instead be focusing on understanding why people aren't voting rather than using cheap gimmicks to annoy people into voting.

At best this feature would encourage a half dozen people 4 times a year to cast votes. There are far more obvious places we could look to find people who currently aren't voting but would be more than happy to.


If you are using UBLock or Brave, you can remove it with this rule:

stackoverflow.com##+js(rpnt, #Text, /^Vote$/, 0)

As far as I'm aware, this is the only place where a single text node with the value "Vote" exists on the site, but if someone has a more restrictive way to limit this to avoid affecting other areas in the future, update it.

ref

6
  • 1
    the first and last sentence here seem to clash? unless the last sentence is talking about increasing access to full voting privileges.
    – starball Mod
    Commented Dec 18, 2024 at 17:22
  • @starball in a sense, it is, but i don't think full voting privileges earlier is the only way to accomplish it.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Dec 18, 2024 at 17:23
  • 1
    Mixing text in a number-counter widget seems like mixing apples and oranges. Does Vote mean there are 10 up and 10 down votes -- OR -- 0? Commented Jan 8 at 6:03
  • 1
    @DavidC.Rankin Yes ( though I'm not sure what this has to do with my answer, ;) )
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jan 8 at 6:29
  • Plus this seems to encourage downvoting too. "VOTE" isn't "vote up if it's useful", it's Joaquin Phoenix' Caesar "SPARE OR KILL!!!!" energy. Like did we not have enough votes before? Are we surprised 20% (seems low!) don't vote? Are we concerned "only 6%" are downvoting? If anything, I think we need fewer downvotes. Anyhow, bad vibes, man, bad vibes.
    – ruffin
    Commented Jan 22 at 17:28
  • I think we need more votes of both kinds. There’s a lot of garbage content out there not being downvoted as well as a lot of people finding useful answers and not upvoting them. Unfortunately stack doesn’t seem interested in actually doing anything real about it.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jan 22 at 17:39
33

I was looking forward to this experiment and I had optimistic attitude towards it... until I actually got this A/B test.

It's awful. It's distracting. It's confusing. It's a visual noise. Just NO!

Maybe consider some polite tooltip drawing attention to the buttons instead. Replacing the post score with a word "VOTE" was a horrific idea. I knew about this experiment and I still got confused multiple times about what's going on. It does NOT look like a nudge towards voting.

1
  • 4
    This. If it was an interesting badge (US-centric bad idea incoming, though I haven't seen that we use votas or votez or whatever either) like a small "vote" sticker modeled on "I voted", that might be interesting, but VOTE has four times the weight of 0. Really distracting, which is why I'm here today. Solution without an actual problem afaict.
    – ruffin
    Commented Jan 22 at 17:31
32

Talking about replacing score 0 with "Vote": Targeting a zero score answer has no point in it. If anything, you want to target a zero vote answer. It is meaningful to ask for zero vote answers to be evaluated, but not zero score ones.

An answer could be heavily voted on with with 12 upvotes and 12 downvotes, and you would still display 'vote'? This makes no sense.

A zero total score is as worth as any other number, and not so special/ugly to be targeted.

4
  • 2
    Thank you for the feedback I will take it back to the team to consider.
    – Hoid StaffMod
    Commented Jan 21 at 18:31
  • 2
    I've attempted to do this, but unfortunately I don't think it can easily be done without performance issues, because on page load we currently only load a precalculated/denormalised score. I agree with the idea, but it'll need some re-work to that precalculation, which isn't something we can take on right now.
    – Connell StaffMod
    Commented Apr 14 at 10:28
  • @Connell there is an easy fix, that wouldn't require messing with the precalculation...
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 14 at 15:09
  • @KevinB the "polite tooltip" suggestion you linked there would have the same zero score vs zero votes problem ;)
    – Connell StaffMod
    Commented Apr 15 at 12:13
29

We don’t see many users who hold voting privileges participating in voting.

This breaks down as follows, on a monthly average:

  • Only 20% of registered users who have the upvote privilege are using it.
  • Only 6% of registered users who have the downvoting privilege are using it.

These stats on their own do not support the claim that many people who could vote do not vote. The sprinkle of statistics might make the post seem "data-driven" but the intelligent reader will see through.

Can you clarify if it's 20% of all registered users who have the upvote privilege? Or only those that were active in a particular month who don't ever vote?

If it's all, then it could just be that 20% of registered users don't ever visit SO.

If it's active users, it could still be that they just visit one question that month, and don't vote on 1 question. I wouldn't call that a problem.

Even prolific voters don't vote on every question/answer they look at and that's probably also not a goal.

What's the ideal rate of voting per question view in your view? How many people achieve it and how many don't? Those are the sorts of things that might make this more data driven.

What's the distribution of question views without voting for those 20% that don't vote? That would be interesting insight. If someone visits 100 questions in a month and doesn't vote then, yeah, they should be encouraged to do so. But you haven't shown that with your data above.

26

Regarding the update to extend this experiment to all users on January 16th, here is my feedback

I hate the Vote prompt.

From the "question"

Why we are doing this

We don’t see many users who hold voting privileges participating in voting. This breaks down as follows, on a monthly average:

  • Only 20% of registered users who have the upvote privilege are using it.
  • Only 6% of registered users who have the downvoting privilege are using it.

Voting is one of the most significant actions users can take to signal quality on the network. We would like to see what minor actions we can take to encourage users to vote more frequently on content they visit. These experiments will only be visible to those with voting privileges.

I might be among the users who rarely upvote, but that is because very few posts deserve an upvote. It's improbable that I will vote more frequently due to the Vote prompt.

Related

19

For Q&A that has no score or answers that have equal up and down votes the zero will be replaced with the word “vote”.

Since you seem to have ignored the request to remove this entirely, could you at least give users the option to disable this and/or auto-remove it for users who have cast a certain number of votes.

8
  • 6
    Given that this is just a test and that the change might not be permanent (depending on the experiment's results), it seems a bit premature to build in logic that would allow for per-user customization at this point.
    – JNat StaffMod
    Commented Jan 8 at 5:58
  • 20
    @JNat given stackoverflows history over the last few years of abandoning things as soon as they leave being an experiment, whilst it's an experiment seems the only time we can get changes for the future state (like per user customisation). Commented Jan 8 at 11:09
  • 4
    @JNat Well I would like there to be some way users who find it annoying and who already know about voting not be annoyed by this.
    – Starship
    Commented Jan 8 at 18:55
  • @WJS That would encourage massive amounts of people upvoting without thinking just to get rep. One of the worst ideas I've ever heard, honestly.
    – Starship
    Commented Jan 8 at 22:10
  • 1
    There are already badges for voting; does that lead to mindless voting? Something seems clear to me: downvotes are a valuable contribution to the site and shouldn't be punished.
    – tenfour
    Commented Jan 9 at 11:33
  • @tenfour Sometimes, yes I actually do think it does. But badges are less enticing than rep, and you get no badges for voting after electorate at 600 votes (and 25% on questions)
    – Starship
    Commented Jan 9 at 13:18
  • 3
    @JNat And...unsurprisingly enough...its not an experiment anymore...but this still hasn't been implemented.
    – Starship
    Commented Jan 21 at 18:40
  • 2
    @JNat So add this on to the record of implementing half baked features and then not responding to feedback. Would it be premature to roll back the 'experiment' until such time you have engineering resources to implement it properly? Maybe in 6 to 8 years. Commented Jan 25 at 21:47
19

Note: My later words in this answer post were written before the clarification that downvotes will not be encouraged as part of this experiment, or at least this round of this experiment. I like the intent, but am starting to not like the implementation.

I'm disappointed to hear that this will only encourage upvoting (and only on the top answer post) and not downvoting, considering that downvoting was mentioned explicitly in the question post.

I'm also turning around on the word "Vote" replacing zero-score indicator. I thought I wouldn't mind it, and I thought it would read informationally rather than like a command, but now that it's on my screen, I do mind it, and it does read like a command, which is off-putting.


(original answer):

I support this. I'd love to see people make use of their voting privilege more (provided they're voting based on whether things are useful to them or not). I suspect that not voting is a habit formed from votes appearing to be meaningless before gaining privileges (and to a large extent, that's true).

Questions-

  • When they have downvote privileges, what will the popover look like? Will it only encourage them to vote up? Voting down is equally important.
  • What about questions? The example screenshot shows the popover for an answer post, but what about question posts?
  • What happens when there are multiple answer posts?
  • I like that the popover is close to the buttons themselves, but given the two questions above, was it considered to use the existing stuff like the "welcome back- remember to vote" and "you haven't voted on questions/answers in a while" things, which appear at the top of the page?
3
  • 8
    The experiment will focus on upvoting only; answers only; on the top answer only, if there are multiple. The pop-over will not show concurrently to the currently existing banners. We will see what we learn, and go from there.
    – JNat StaffMod
    Commented Dec 16, 2024 at 14:56
  • 12
    @JNat there are more users who have the upvote privilege as this requires lower rep, and by your own numbers the fraction of people with the privilege who actually use it is about 3.3 times higher for upvotes than downvotes. This means if this site is lacking voting users, there is a significantly higher lack of downvoters than upvoters. There are also significant issues with lower and lower content quality, and garbage being upvoted or at least not downvoted is a big part of that. So why the hell does SE focus on upvotes again and again and ignores downvotes?
    – l4mpi
    Commented Dec 18, 2024 at 15:14
  • 1
    @DavidC.Rankin Downvotes did not force me to delete that answer. I chose to delete it because I felt the commenters made good points and it was obvious it was not considered a good idea by the community.
    – Starship
    Commented Jan 10 at 13:16
18

This morning, we expanded the vote prompt and popover to all users.

Does that mean the experiment has graduated?

Or does that mean that the experiment has moved from A/B testing to only B testing?

17

It is horrible. Is there a Tampermonkey script to get rid of the abomination?

1
15

For a long time user of SO, this prompt is terrible.

The vote count is one of the most crucial pieces of information in the UI and you've just decided to obscure it.

When I'm looking for an answer, I usually first look for the most voted one, read it, cross-reference it with a few more top answers and then skim the rest, focusing more on the ones with low vote count that may be new and target some latest updates. Notice how important to this process is to have fast and reliable way to check the answer score.

I've just got targeted by the A/B test and it was like my brain instantly hitting the wall.

The previously simple brain procedure of:


> parse_int(vote_of_answer_0)
0
> parse_int(vote_of_answer_1)
0

turned into:

> parse_int(vote_of_answer_0)
Exception: number format is incorrect
> parse_int(vote_of_answer_0)
Exception: number format is incorrect
> parse_int(vote_of_answer_0)
Exception: Operation timed out!
Switching off fast track thinking model.
Engaging logic engine and redirecting full attention to the number.
Exception: The data is not in an expected format. Expected "int" but got "string".
Inference: the layout has been changed (70% probability)
Searching for the vote count in a different location...
No matches found.
Checking memory banks...
Found a match: "Voting experiment to encourage people who rarely vote to upvote".
Inference: "vote" means "0" (50% probability due to poor quality of the recalled memory and possible changes after that announcement)
Exception: the information is not sufficient to proceed as normal
Calculating the next step...
Clicking on the "vote" to validate the score...
0/0
Inference: "vote" mean "0" (95% probability)
Updating the fast track model...
Warning: updating automatic processes usually takes a long time and multiple attempts - the results may be unreliable
Disengaging attention.
Trying to restore fast track thinking model.
> parse_int(vote_of_answer_1)
Exception: number format is incorrect
> parse_int(vote_of_answer_1)
"vote" interpreted as "0"
Exception: inconsistency found - "vote" is much too long to be "0"
Critical error: the fast track thinking may be compromised - forcing inconsistency resolution mode.
Engaging full attention.
Retrieving the last working solution for this problem...
Clicking on the "vote" to validate the score...
0/0
Updating the fast track model...
Warning: updating automatic processes usually takes a long time and multiple attempts - the results may be unreliable
Disengaging attention.

I might get used to "vote" after some time but even then it will require more attention to parse than just a plain number. And even if not, till then you'll manage to waste a lot of my time. Now multiply this by the number of users who will get similar problems as me, which is most of the long-time SO users and ponder if those experiments of yours are really worth doing if everyone is telling you that this is a bad idea.

3
  • "if everyone is telling you that this is a bad idea" - You mean everyone here? I don't think people using meta (usually experienced SO users) are the people this change is intended to reach. Our opinions therefore aren't that relevant. The update reports an increase of voters, so maybe it works.
    – no comment
    Commented Jan 25 at 18:53
  • 2
    LOL, love it...! You've got a few typos though ("to long" = "too long" + "automatic processed" = "automatic processes") // You could add some next steps: Engaging full attention. => Searching for workaround... => Checking memory banks => Found a match: "How do I opt out or manually revert the new "vote encouragement" experiment?" (here) => Implementing workaround => Initial state restored...!
    – chivracq
    Commented Jan 25 at 19:01
  • @nocomment Developers should always listen to their power users. Commented Feb 18 at 23:29
13

The idea to promote voting is good,but the second experiment "vote prompt" is heavily distracting, asking us the reason for this abnormality, and many are eventually distracted and moved to this meta question, than focusing on the answers there. This experiment doesn't support the voting much theoretically than other alternatives like popover.

12

I've been seeing this for a while now and had to seek this post out to see the background of this change. I still participate in voting, but nowhere near as much. I've voted recently and it's still showing for me.

If you want me to vote more, you're just going to get more downvotes across with this. "Vote" is a very evocative word on its own and, accepting my own fallibility, it's just going to make me downvote questions where I would otherwise give the benefit of the doubt and assume there might be some fringe knowledge of some library that I don't understand/seem unable to research.

The term "Vote" as a seeming command massively trumps the "New Contributor" flag in my head. It's not nice to admit that but it's no different than colouring a notification in red to compel a person to read it IMO. In this case, it is definitely detrimental for the outcome you want from me.

1
  • 4
    Thie "Vote" prompt is actually driving me nuts. It's distracting me now on every question I'm trying to read. I'll end up voting just to get rid of it (and not an informed vote) because it sits way too close and too prominently to the text I'm actually trying to read. It's horrible UX.
    – roganjosh
    Commented Jan 13 at 17:58
11

Has this now been released to everybody? Or what changed in the experiment? As of maybe an hour or two (not sure when exactly it started) I now get the "Vote" text. I was not in the "Vote" group earlier today on this same machine. I see several more people reporting they see "Vote" as of extremely recently.

0
10

A bit of real-user feedback: I had no idea that "Vote" was supposed to be an encouragement to vote: I initially thought the vote counts were broken.

To make it a bit more obvious, you could potentially update the tooltip? It still says "View upvote and downvote totals" (I'm over the threshold to see this prompt). Given that the posts in question will always have a score of 0, I suggest changing it to explain the text somewhat. Something like this (a modified version of /help/why-vote):

You haven't voted on this post yet. Voting is central to our model of providing quality questions and answers; good content rises up and incorrect content falls to the bottom. Learn More...

1
  • 1
    I think "you haven't voted on this post yet" reads like the reader is expected to vote on said post. they aren't. but I like the general idea.
    – starball Mod
    Commented Jan 13 at 1:00
9

TL;DR - I see two big flaws of how this experiment was implemented:

  1. People who are active voters receive the experience - if the goal of the experiment is to remind people to vote, then the users who are regular voters should not receive the experience.
  2. Once I vote (multiple times BTW), I still receive the experience. Once I voted, the reminder should appear once a sensible amount of time has passed (days or weeks), instead of appearing the next time I visit another post (which in my case was seconds after I voted).

I just ran into this on a random answer to a random question - neither the question nor the other answers were showing this:

vote placeholder

I have voted a lot since I joined SO, so please don't show this to people that are active voters.


The heck, I voted a few times this evening, and now this "Vote" thing started to appear on even more posts. Looks like a bug, why am I reminded to vote a few seconds after I casted votes on other posts?

5
  • 1
    No bug, it's the new norm. graduated to live site for everyone.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jan 16 at 19:52
  • 7
    @KevinB, the description on the experiment says that its goal is to encourage people who rarely vote, to vote. Clearly I'm not part of that group of users, the bug that I see is fact that I was targeted for this experiment. Any well-designed experiment has a target audience, and this experiment seems to fail this criteria...
    – Cristik
    Commented Jan 16 at 19:57
  • 5
    that's not a bug, it's the stupid design. "We found that if we make the button bigger more people will click it"
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jan 16 at 19:58
  • Then it's a bug of the design ;)
    – Cristik
    Commented Jan 16 at 19:58
  • 2
    Vote to remove "Vote" xD
    – aepot
    Commented Jan 17 at 8:11
9

I've become a very infrequent user of Stack Exchange, and when I saw the text "vote" in place of the score, I thought this was some sort of bug—that the actual voting score didn't load and a placeholder text was put there instead.

For the life of me, I wouldn't have expected this behavior, and I used to be very active on this site.

0
8

I haven't posted answers on Meta Stack Overflow yet, but this time I feel I have to post an answer to this.

First, a score of zero on posts is replaced by "Vote", which is significantly wider than the vote arrow buttons, this alone breaks the layout and makes it ugly in my opinion.

Second, there are two vote buttons, upvote and downvote. "Vote" doesn't specify which type of vote to cast, do you ask people to downvote? If you want people to upvote, you need to make it scream "Upvote" instead of just "Vote", which uglifies the layout even more.

Third, if you want to encourage people to vote, why do you only want to encourage people to upvote? Why the bias against downvotes? Downvotes help control content quality on Stack Exchange network. If we only cast upvotes, then low quality posts will be out of control, and this network will cease to be a high-quality repository of information.

Last, what is the criteria for upvoting?

This question shows research effort; it is useful and clear

Is any of these metrics considered when that number zero is replaced with "Vote"? Did you consider the quality of the post when you remind people to vote?

There are lots of people posting questions with code generated by AI, questions without code, questions that blatantly ask people to write code for them, questions that are unclear, and completely off-topic questions...

Are you asking people to upvote those questions? Is this your latest attempt to turn this network into yet another social media?

6
  • 2
    This answer seems based on the assumption they only want people to upvote, which is not what this feature is about.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jan 17 at 13:31
  • 9
    @Cerbrus "Voting experiment to encourage people who rarely vote to upvote"
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jan 17 at 13:32
  • 1
    The announcement itself also talks about downvoting as much as it does upvoting. (albeit with a even lower usage statistic), and it contains: "We would like to see what minor actions we can take to encourage users to vote more frequently" which doesn't specifically target only upvotes.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jan 17 at 13:34
  • 4
    @Cerbrus The announcement only ever mentions downvotes in passing, and the popover they implemented explicitly encourages upvotes only. I'm not sure why you're so determined to defend this experiment. Commented Jan 17 at 20:09
  • @JohnMontgomery because the impact of this experiment is extremely low, yet it's made out to be some horrendous massive eyesore. If this change increases voting metrics, I'm all for it! Regular users will get used to this change in no time.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jan 20 at 15:17
  • 1
    To be clear, increases in upvoting or downvoting are things we are looking for We are not hoping for one over the other. Right now, we only have an upvoting prompt because its less disruptive. We have not closed the door on testing out one for downvoting. However, we may not pursue it as it seems like voting is being impacted relatively equally.
    – Hoid StaffMod
    Commented Jan 21 at 18:34
7

Our test group showed a 3.8% increase in new monthly voters.

That annoys thousands of actual heavy SO users.

6
  • Unfortunately you cannot measure annoyment easily. You don't know how many leave because they are too frustrated. Commented Apr 13 at 7:40
  • 1
    @NoDataDumpNoContribution I am pretty sure you can extrapolate from the number of comments under this question, the question's VOTE count, the number of answers to this question, their comment section and their VOTE count... Commented Apr 13 at 9:26
  • But you are still here although this new feature probably annoys you. Others might have left though and we don't know how many. That's what I wanted to convey. Sure, it's one more unpopular change, but it's difficult to accurately estimate what negative impacts it has. Commented Apr 13 at 9:46
  • @NoDataDumpNoContribution it doesn't annoy me because of the workaround answers to my question. Pretty much everybody has a workaround and isn'T annoyed. If workarounds didn't exist I'd say I personally would decrease my use of the site by 90%+. Commented Apr 13 at 9:49
  • It might end as it always end: Light weight users vote more (but maybe not better), heavy users keep the old experience to a large extent with workarounds, a few people might leave. And that is not really measured by the company when they determine the success of their experiment. That's what I wanted to get at, when I saw that you commented on possible negative impacts. Commented Apr 13 at 10:01
  • @NoDataDumpNoContribution That's what my answer is all about - the hard evidence of 3.8% more votes couldn't offset anything intangible/tangible that SO cannot or won't bother to measure. Commented Apr 13 at 10:19
6

What exactly do you mean by an increase in "monthly" voters if this experiment only lasted about a week?

3
  • 1
    Indeed, if it's a 3.8% increase week-on-week directly after a major holiday period ends, that doesn't seem like an ideal metric.
    – DBS
    Commented Jan 16 at 20:08
  • 6
    This experiment is effectively hey let's hide the score for 0 scored posts until someone votes on it. which inevitably will draw attention to that section in the near term, until people become blind to it again. The same effect would have been observed by making it red. I can't stand watching SO do these stupid experiments with foregone obvious conclusions anyone can guess.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jan 16 at 20:10
  • @KevinB simple. make it flash in rainbow colors, and if they don't click it in 6-8, dispatch a crew to their address
    – starball Mod
    Commented Jan 16 at 21:01
6

I seem to see this on every 0-score question, along with the console error:

Unable to load nonexistent manifest entry 'recent-posts'. Check that your file path is correct.

Is this currently broken?

5

We plan to prompt users who have voting privileges but have not engaged with the feature much (e.g., once every three months, never voted before, etc.).

What's the exact criteria you're testing? The current ones are very vaguely specified as a non-exhaustive list of:

  • once every three months (did you mean haven't voted in past 3 months? Otherwise over which period do you average?)
  • Never voted before (redundant category: it's included in the above)
  • etc. (who else is included?)
5

This feature is annoying to me. But luckily, it seems that I can still opt-out this feature by logout StackOverflow, so maybe not too bad(?).

The number of voting is an important information to the questions and answers. As they make a perfect guide to me about the quality of the answer before I really read it. So, to my browsing pattern, I would simply see the word "Vote" even before I had read anything about the content. So I would wonder how can I vote without reading the content.

Before you encourage voting, you should be clear about why people (up) vote answers. Maybe it is...

  1. Because the answer is helpful to me;
  2. Because I regular click the vote button before I read anything;
  3. Because the vote (like) button is large and round;
  4. Because there is a button I can touch on;

And I believe the answer is not (1) under your consideration.

4
  • By your same logic, you're seeing the voting arrows before you see the content of the post. Sooo... should the entire voting component be moved to the right? It feels rather pedantic to use that as a reason not to change the display...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jan 17 at 8:14
  • @Cerbrus We cost more time on reading the code than writing. The same idea here. The voting is more important for reading than voting. So, the ui should be good for reading more importantly.
    – tsh
    Commented Jan 17 at 8:50
  • 1
    "The voting is more important for reading than voting"... What? I don't understand what you're trying to say there... Can you try to reword what you're trying to say?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jan 17 at 8:53
  • 1
    @Cerbrus It is more important to optimize the display for "Read" the voting result rather than optimize it for "Vote" action. So the voting result (0 votings in all) is more important than telling user "Hey, these buttons are designed to vote". It should not be moved to right as the "0" here is useful for "Yes, I now know the score of the post now", which (to me) is better to know before I read the post.
    – tsh
    Commented Jan 17 at 10:19
4

If the popover is dismissed, the user won’t see the prompt for a period of time.

What period of time? Maybe you should just not show it if someone has dismissed N, e.g. 3, times in a row, otherwise you're causing popover-mania for those who simply don't want to vote.

An alternative is to use exponential backoff. E.g. show it again after a day, then 2 days, then 4 days, then 8 days, ... so that one only has to dismiss too often.

4

I really don't like the idea that this increases the incumbent top answer's advantage by being shown only for the first answer. Pile on votes are already a problem as people scroll till they find a solution that works which leads to recently submitted better answers having a big disadvantage re voting.

I get that you don't want to show the pop-over on all questions and answers. But you could show it on a randomly selected answer instead.

On pageload, you decide which answer number to show it on and that's where it's going to show up.

3
  • 5
    That completely depends on what answers are sorted by, by the user. On questions with multiple answers, how likely is it for users to even look beyond the top sorted answer? Showing the popup on answer #10 isn't useful at all.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jan 9 at 13:27
  • 4
    It is useful, because it gives each question the same chance of being boosted. it doesn't matter at all that many won't reach #10. You just show the popover on the next question on a random question again. There's a default sort, most users will use that, especially those who don't vote. Commented Jan 9 at 15:13
  • It's all over now, not just the first answer. Is that better? :ick:
    – ruffin
    Commented Jan 22 at 17:32

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